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Post by apollor on Apr 6, 2009 14:12:51 GMT 10
Firstly, this is not a story about Dragons, sorry to disappoint  Second I had a tooth out this morning so this might just be the painkillers talking... bear with me. Duns' mentioned in the ever topic-creeping dual-specs thread that he likes to chase the top of the DPS meters. Awesome I thought, and then I had another thought :-) Being on top is by all accounts the best place to be. I'm sure James Bond would agree. */slap*. But, we should be mindful that we don't get tunnel vision on our own position to the detriment of the overall goal of killing those bosses efficiently. What am I on about? Well put simply sharing the love! or more importantly the DPS around. We all know we buff and all that goodness, and we pick talents and use specific abilities because it boosts others. Choosing the right balance of totems, aura's, buffs, talents etc as well as AOEing vs. single targeting or vice versa all makes a big big difference to the total dps capable of any group. Yadda yadda... What I wanna say is, getting to the point and all that with out further a-do and without gilding the lily. Make our focus, our goal, faster KILL TIMES. We should race against ourselves each time we do a boss and try and beat our record times, because if we can beat our record it means overall a a group we are doing more dps. To that end. I'd love to start tracking our boss kill times on the forums maybe. Sort of a score board of kill times. Huh? what do you think? (or should I take more meds and just pass out?) -Apoooooooommmmmmpainkillersaresooooogroooovey |
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Post by baddemon on Apr 7, 2009 12:35:58 GMT 10
This is a great idea!! The problem with DPS meters is that it only measures damage done by your spells/attacks directly to the boss, and not your total contributions. For example:
Warlocks DPS is 4000- not bad. But in an effort to be higher on the DPS chart, Warlock decides he's going to use Curse of Agony instead of Curse of Elements (for arguements sake, we'll assume that there is no other Curse of Elements type buff in the raid). Using stats from a recent raid, this particular Warlock gets an extra 260 DPS from Curse of Agony - again, not bad. But let's put it into perspective...
Calculating manually by adding up the average DPS from spell users over all bosses from this same WWS report, we find that the raid average DPS from spells is about 32k DPS - that's right, 32k!
So let's say that this warlock decides that he's going to use CoE instead of his CoA - the raid loses 260 DPS from the CoA, but gains 13% of 32k, or 4160 DPS! Turns out, that CoE actually does more damage then all the other damage that Warlock was doing put together!
This is a slightly bad example, as there are two other classes who now do a 13% dmg buff passively (boomkin and Unholy DK), which we almost always have in the raid. But you get the idea. Almost every raid wide buff that any class can put out is going to be more important that anything else that toon can do. Especially when you take into account that many of the buffs are multiplicative - for example, if you raise the damage by 13%, the haste by 8%, and the crit by 10%, the total damage increase is not just 31%, it's more like 34.2%. You get an extra 3% damage just from the synergy!
The point is, all the DPS really needs to look at the big picture here - Recount is showing you one piece of information, but you have to look at it intellegently. What really needs to considered by everyone is what is the total benefit you're bringing to the raid! I urge you to sit down and calculate it out - but here are just a few:
5% spell haste: 1600 DPS
10% spell crit: 3200 DPS (assuming average crit bonus is 100%)
3% spell hit/haste/crit/damage: 960 DPS per
280 Spell power: 1920 DPS (using dps spreadsheet for warlock, assuming similar benefit across other casters).
Synergy bonus from having all available buffs for spell caster: ~10%, or 3200 DPS
So, look at the damage meter for a guide to how much direct damage you put out - but the truth is, it pales in comparison to the benefit of your raid buffs to a 25 man raid. Hopefully, everyone will use this thought process, both when selecting talents and gear (if the gear effects the benefit or uptime of your raid buff).
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Post by gbsilk on Apr 9, 2009 14:30:45 GMT 10
A very good point Apo. I think Bad agrees but he went well off-track after the first 5 words...
Someone who isn't me should totally volunteer to do this. You know I remember someone saying once that whoever came up with the brilliant idea should be the one to implement it too...
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Post by seveneves on Apr 9, 2009 15:45:04 GMT 10
I don't think Bad went very far off the track, to be honest. I think a lot of people would read "faster kill times" as "I need to do more dps". Bad has just put forward the reality of one person increasing their own DPS, but to the detriment of the group as a whole. He's given the actual numbers that relate to this part of Apo's post: We all know we buff and all that goodness, and we pick talents and use specific abilities because it boosts others. Choosing the right balance of totems, aura's, buffs, talents etc as well as AOEing vs. single targeting or vice versa all makes a big big difference to the total dps capable of any group. For example, I always drop Totem of Wrath. However, if Drystan is in the group and also dropping ToW, I'll do searing totem instead. I actually have been meaning to look up the uptime for Demonic Pact, because it doesn't stack with ToW. If it's up all the time, then I won't even bother dropping ToW when a demo lock is around (read: greegs). I would venture to say that all our players are doing their best to hit their spells and abilities whenever they're ready. I think it's the little things that will help us improve. Paying attention on boss fights and looking closely at different areas of the reports. A good example being Thoragk's post on the ret aura - I had no idea it worked like this now - they actually made it useful! So it's the same old story - read up on your class talents and mechanics - and particularly how they can benefit people other than yourself. But make sure that any information you read is current. There have been countless times when I've tried researching something, only to find out its 3 months old and completely useless. |
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Post by greeegit on Apr 9, 2009 17:19:28 GMT 10
To contribute information about demonic pact for Sev:
"Your pet's criticals apply the Demonic Pact effect to your party or raid members. Demonic Pact increases spell power by 10% of your Spell Damage for 12 sec. Does not work on Enslaved demons.'
For this buff to be more effective than the shaman's ToW the lock must have +2801 spell power (flasks, spirit and food apparently arn't taken into consideration - although this may have been fixed now...should check that out).
On average my locks spell power would be around 3200 with raid buffs not including flasks, and what not (3550+ with.), with trinket procs (which I'm lead to believe can affect demonic pact) it can go up to 3750-3800 (just under 4k with flasks etc.). So at times this means that the raid party will receive an extra 320-400 sp from this buff.
However, demonic pact proc is based upon my pet critting (which is also based upon my crit) - therefore it isn't up 100% of the time, obviously I have no math work on this (perhaps Bad would..) but from what I've noticed it's up time would be around 80-90% of the time for me - provided that my pet is still alive. I think it would still be wise to drop ToW for the downtime that demonic pact has so that the raid continuously has some form of a spell power buff.
I do wonder however if my buff overrides Sev's totem as a whole or whether the 3% crit bonus from ToW may still apply and just factors out the spell dmg component.
I'm sure Bad would be more knowledgeable but that at least gives you a small insight into it.
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Post by thoragk on Apr 9, 2009 17:35:00 GMT 10
Patchwerk, 3mins.
GO!
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drglnc
Member
Doh!! Was i supposed to trap that?
Posts: 37
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Post by drglnc on Apr 10, 2009 22:45:44 GMT 10
This is a great idea. As a guy comeing into the raids after the guild has downed most bosses without me it adds a goal of me helping to down that boss faster/better. Unfourtunatly im a BM hunter and don't offer much for raid buffing but my presence should be more than enuff to make up for that.  |
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drglnc
Member
Doh!! Was i supposed to trap that?
Posts: 37
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Post by drglnc on Apr 10, 2009 22:47:11 GMT 10
on a dif note... Why hasnt my sig block updated in like 3 weeks???
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Post by seveneves on Apr 11, 2009 0:18:32 GMT 10
on a dif note... Why hasnt my sig block updated in like 3 weeks??? Just log into dkpsigs and 'edit' it and it'll refresh. |
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