Thoughts on Dual spec'ing

[dunstort]

Castus I had no idea that you would use four different sets throughout a raid. Thats the great thing about these forums, plenty to learn =)

My gear had been mainly honed for 25 mans and as such heaps of SP and haste, but not a great regard for regen as there is tons of raid buffs. I've been doing a few more 10 mans (as I've had a bit more time on my hands) and I've run into mana issues on long fights. As such I have a bit of mana regen gear for when I need it.

I've previously tried to avoid rolling on this gear as the inevitable discussion would rise "Why is he rolling on +sp cloth?". Well for the same reason you would, sometimes it comes in handy. If a clothie needs it for an offspec then I wouldn't roll, but goes to a non-clothie just because they may possibly use it on an offspec then I feel that I've missed out. I usually opt to stay out and use what I have than get into this discussion, especially during mid-raid.

Come 3.1 some of us will need to adjust our gear accordingly to the changes and to the boss fights. Personally I am thinking more and more about building a killer PvP mage as my offspec. In fact has anyone been on the the PTR? Does anyone know if a Frost-mage would be handy because that could be fun too.

[baddemon]

OMG Neph, that's the coolest Avatar ever. I love that movie!

[castus]

It's all in the reflexes...

[gbsilk]

I can answer that Duns - no a frost mage won't be handy. Frost, despite its buffs, is simply not a viable raiding spec. Its dps is just far, far too low (several hundred dps below the lowest dps fire and arcane specs). Replenishment won't bridge that gap (we really always should have replenishment in 25s anyway without taking a gimped spec in just for - well aside from Ret Pallies...)

Of course, everything that I have read indicates that arcane will be at least as dead as frost is. The main reason for this is that arcane is totally crippled without a guaranteed 10 sec evocate window every 2 minutes. Most, if not all, of the fights in Ulduar will not give you that chance. The fights are also much longer - meaning that arcane's burst potential is somewhat muted.

It looks more and more like FFB and the TotW Fireball spec are the only raid viable mage specs come 3.1.

[sidara2]

Dual specs will save me cash! Well, in the long run anyway.

To me, it's the convenience. Sid is geared enough to heal through a 25-man (wouldn't want to be the sole MT healer though), I certainly wouldn't roll off against a healer for healing gear since I'm DPS 80% of the time. My boomkin gear is still pretty crap (although I'm creeping towards the hit cap, need more +crit now) and in fact I have such good healing gear on that I actually struggle to make a dent in my mana pool when DPSing. Sigh. Stupid spirit.

I don't do it now, and I won't do it when 3.1 rolls around. I don't really see that the sitch has changed tbh - most people still have a toon/spec that they play *most of the time* but I've never seen someone complain about being asked to switch to offspec. All that's changed is that it's now free and easy to change to that spec we play 10/20/30% of the time.

(Insert massive whinge about the total lack of DPS spellpower leather here)

I don't see that 3.1 is going to make anything harder - it should be easier. Priests can flip to shadow for Razuvious, healers can go pew-pew spec for Thaddius, etc. It's all win, IMO.

Odd that when Thoragk and I were looking around for a guild, we were assuming that he'd be tanking and I'd be healing since there's (apparently) a tank/healer shortage. Now we're both DPSing...

TL;DR version: If people are being loot whores now, that's not going to change with 3.1. Similarly, if they're not now, I don't see that suddenly changing when the patch hits.

[Nephrael]

China is *here*, Mr. Baddemon.

[Rakshasi]

Son of a bitch MUST PAY




(this thread will go the distance)
edit: indeed! lol

[apollor]

Apr 7, 2009 12:41:53 GMT 10 sidara2 said:

I don't see that 3.1 is going to make anything harder - it should be easier. Priests can flip to shadow for Razuvious, healers can go pew-pew spec for Thaddius, etc. It's all win, IMO.

... hunters can flip for more pew-pew... hmm nope still ain't gonna happen ;-)

I jest, as those that know me know I have and loved my hunter toon. I may even dust him off one day and drag him to lvl 80 *scary*

[mae1984]

Ok, time for me to add my 2c since this is an issue I for one feel strongly about.

In my opinion off specs are exactly the same as an alt: they allow people to flexibly fill different raid positions when needed and let people have change when they are tired of doing the same old thing. Therefore, I believe that they should have the same rights to loot. If people were only using their alts when the raid group absolutely needed them to then maybe I would agree they have equal rights to mains but in reality people often grab gear for one toon before swapping to gear an alt or three. So if alts can suicide for gear then so should off specs. If someone is finding they are being asked to raid on an alt 75% of the time and they have been happy doing that they may want to change which toon is their main. So at this point I would support the system where anyone who wants to can choose to suicide be they main, alt or off spec.

The idea that off specs will walk away with twice the gear is simply not true because they can only use their spot once before they are under all the other people from both specs. Also, unless they want both specs to gear very slowly it is likely that most people will not roll on off specs until they have geared their main spec (which is the same time a lot of people jump over to an alt). In addition the fact that they can still benefit from raiding without jumping toons means we keep some of the most geared toons in our raid group allowing those who want to swap out to less geared alts to do so without the raid failing.

But... then we come to the issue that people don't want to roll on BiS against off-specs, Ok understandable. But I don't want to roll against alts on BiS gear either. Seeing some of the best gear we have managed to acquire sit on alts or rarely used off specs is not fun.

Therefore my opinion is that we should move to a system where people roll main-spec main toon first then loot is passed to off spec (legitimate) and alts for a /roll.

Let the debate continue : ) Val

[gbsilk]

A well argued post Val

The issue of alts is obviously somewhat sensitive for me as well. I guess ultimately a lot of my concerns are dissipating basically because I have now committed to running Quincy as my main - how embarrassing right? I am now a main spec healer...

I could probably agree with you that alts in our guild ARE in a better position than off-specs. I think at times though you underestimate the disadvantages that people who play alts have too. The disadvantages that their mains have as opposed to yours.

When you are running Val (even as a healer):

(1) you continue to move up the loot list on your main toon;
(2) you get main spec preference for on spec gear; and
(3) you can take gear for your off-spec (provided no main spec wants it).

When on an alt, a player:

(1) doesn't move up the loot list on their main toon; and
(2) has no way to get main spec (or off-spec) gear for their main,

but in exchange:

(1) gets main spec preference on their alts on spec gear; and
(2) moves up the loot list on their alt.

This means your main gears up much faster than theirs. Your off-spec may gear faster too but this is much more dependent on luck and how crowded that role is. You will get shared slots much slower. Arguably this isn't a massive loss to the raid team, if your particular (I don't mean you personally here) role is crowded then it may not be in the teams best interest to dilute gear even further.

Your system (which btw I don't strongly disagree with - I don't particularly believe that people should be able to run whatever scrub alt they feel like, at least in progression 25 man content) will punish pure dps classes, because they HAVE to roll an alt to do something different, and those who, for the good of the raid, run on their alts (think Apo's priest). I would be making a serious sacrifice to run GB because not only do I not get gear or loot list positioning on Quincy, I will have almost no chance of getting any gear on GB.

Now, like you, I do not particularly like the practice of abandoning your mostly geared toon so you can gear up a badly undergeared alt in top end gear. I also don't like people who drastically cut back their attendance at raids as soon as they have the gear they want. Combining the two together is highly undesirable in my view. I'd like to think of a way to combat this problem.

95% of the time letting dual specs roll "main-spec" on either of their specs won't cause a problem. Its the other 5% I am worried about. Its the people who don't have a dual spec who will now have more competition for their gear and the biggest increase in competition will be for the shared slots (rings, trinkets etc) which are hard enough to gear now.

As I have said before I think the people it will hurt the most are mages, locks and priests. I just don't see the benefit in changing the rules broadly to allow min-maxing of a 2nd spec at the expense of someone else's main spec (or only spec).

[greeegit]

As much as I am tired of discussing this over and over, I feel the need to point out AGAIN that in many cases the alts in the guild have actually been necessary for our raids to be successful. I don't see them as the same as off spec - they have just as much time as mains have invested into them. I realise that people changing their spec has also been vital to our recent raiding success also - I'll be the first to acknowledge that. I've tried to look at this issue from everyone's different viewpoint (those with a viable duel spec, those with alts, those with just one pure dps main.) To be honest, there is no easy solution to these issues. Currently, I believe our loot system works as best as possible to be fair to all and I struggle with the idea of changing our entire looting system to accommodate dual specs as I believe this will only effect a small number of people and could potentially make a larger number of people rather unhappy. Never will every single person in the guild be happy with the way loot is distributed we can only work to a solution where the majority are happy, which is what I believe we have at present.

Also, a problem that I see with a few people's suggestions will make handing out loot even more of a tedious/time consuming task for the loot master, a job which is already a whole packet of funsies for the person unfortunate enough to get lumped with it.

The issue that I have with anyone being allowed to roll on a piece of loot whether it is their main spec or their off spec and suiciding off the list for it is that there are people in this guild who are very loot orientated and I believe that they potentially could roll on a piece of loot at a detriment to someone else's main toon unless stopped otherwise.

So my opinion - for what it's worth is to simply leave our loot rules as they are.

[bobelf]

INCOMING WALL OF TEXT

....eh hem.. /agree with Gregs...

Fin

[kelial]

A thought on the alt vs off spec issue and looting in general.
(less wall of textish than the last one... honest.)

There is merit in Val's argument that alts have the same benefits and pitfalls as off specs, but on the flip side using only a single toon grants the benefit of having the shot at twice the list of loot which may drop.

Hows about this, let people choose which spec they want to roll on at the start of the raid, to be carried through to the end of the raid. Implementation would just be toons are assumed at the start of the raid to be rolling on whichever spec they are playing, should a player wish to roll on a different spec they just need to inform the loot master/raid leader before the first loot drops.

This levels out the gap between alts and off specs... there are still some advantages to each over the other but it seems to even out in terms of looting. It's not the progression option, but I agree with Val's concerns and it seems to me that either way the gap between alts and off specs should to be leveled... the progression alternate to this is putting alts down to the same looting level as off specs, also viable but it seems less catered to our style of raid group, variable as it is.

-Kel

*edit* On a side note is it time to remove 10 mans from the loot list entirely and go back to a /roll system? Given that our main focus and source of primary loot is 25s.

[mae1984]

"I just don't see the benefit in changing the rules broadly to allow min-maxing of a 2nd spec at the expense of someone else's main spec (or only spec)"

"potentially could roll on a piece of loot at a detriment to someone else's main toon unless stopped"

Exactly why I think it should be main-spec main toon THEN alts and offspecs. In no way does that disadvantage pure dps....in fact they would have less competition by getting rid of the alts who currently dilute their loot.

[greeegit]

Look Val - I see the point you're trying to make, and I do understand - I just don't see how it is appropriate for the guild make up that we currently have.

[thoragk]

How Alts should be treated with regards to loot distribution is very much reliant on how we see Alts being used within our raids.

• A. - Alts are used to fill a required role, or compensate for an abundance of a particular role
  
• B. - Alts are used to relieve main-toon boredom, or for easy gear

If the guild can strive to maintain and encourage A (as the alternative is more recruitment, which then means rather than a main swapping to an alt, a main is swapped for another main and someone misses out on raiding), then I feel continuing to keep Mains and Alts on equal footing is quite acceptable.

If on the other hand quite a bit of B is occurring, then it would become more appropriate to bump Alts below Mains in regards to looting priority.

Personally, I would hope that B is achieved in 10 man content (or going foward Naxx 25 while we do progression on Ulduar) and we strive to use Alts in progression content only where required, and not so much desired.

[drglnc]

As a class with no real duel spec viability (PVP doesnt count) i would hate to see any system put in place that gives any type of priorty to a duel spec toon. I am not saying thats what is being leaned towards just stating my opinion.

As for the loot system, as many have noticed i have cut my play time quite a bit as i realized my prioritys were way outta wack (i am trying to be a better father and husband as that has greater impact on my life than this game). That being said i have always been against a lot system based on attendance. I also do not like the idea of /roll as the less you raid the fewer chances u have to roll on loot.

Unfourtuntaly i am not smart enuf to actually have a solution so i will pick the lesser of 2 evils in my opinion. I think we should leave the system the way it is at this time. main spec should be declared by the toon at the onset (not necassarily the roll they are filling in that raid) For some we know what the main spec is... for some it may not be so obvious.

As one of the few hunters left i dont have much compition for gear at this point so my opinion should be weighed appropriatly. Just wanted to put my 2 cents in seeing as blizz has eatin into my play time i had a spare few minutes to post.

As for the heated parts of the above posts.... Text is very hard to guage as it comes to tone/intent... but, Can't we all just get along?