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Post by baddemon on Apr 1, 2009 1:49:00 GMT 10
I will start by saying that this is only my opinion, so please don't feel like this is a requirement in any way. Dual spec's has the capability of greatly increasing the success of a raid team if used properly.
As I'm sure most of you know, the tanking/healing requirements of bosses very greatly throughout any dungeon. In the past, if you needed 9 healers for a particular fight, you brought 9 healers on the raid and had to live with it unless you feel like waiting on someone to swap over to their alts for particular fights, etc. This is where dual specs will kick butt! It is possible to have exactly the number of tanks/healers required for any particular fight, no more, no less. This means maximum dps, boss dies quicker, no enrage, no OOM healers, etc, etc.
The way to make this work is basically to have everyone who is capable of more than one role pick a DPS spec as their second spec (and preferably, dps'ers who can tank/heal also do the same). The one thing that will complicate this if Pally's/Druids decide the want to do a tank/healer combo. The way I see it, there is almost never a situation where you are able to give up one for the other.
Anyway, it would greatly maximize the potential of our raid team if those folks who are able do choose to dual spec. Think about it!
On a related note, how do we do loot? The whole idea of "main spec/off spec" doesn't really apply when people are changing all the time. Here is my idea:
1. Instead of "Main spec/off spec," we call it something different like "bid vs roll." Now, instead of only being able to roll on something that is what you have declared as your main spec, you can choose to "bid" on any gear that you like. If you're on the top of the list, you get the item, and are "suicided" just like before.
2. If no one "bids," we open it up to rolls. Like bidding, it doesn't matter what spec you are or are trying to be, if you don't feel like giving up your position on the loot list for the item, you can let fate decide and roll off against anyone else who might want to roll on it.
Basically, like before, if you really want an item, you either have to get lucky, or move your way up the list by participating in raids. Mathematically, it really isn't any different. The people who raid more will move up the lists faster, and thus get more gear. It has the potential of watering down the gear for a hybrid toon who chooses to bid for items of both of his/her specs, but I personally feel that this will be more than offset by the flexibility provided by that person's toon being able to perform well in either roll.
I do suggest a bit of "gentlemanly" behavior. For example, if something drops that's best-in-slot for the guild main tank, and you happen to be higher than him on the list (which if you think about it, is probably pretty unlikely, but anyway) and building your tanking set, you might consider passing for him. We can't make people put the needs of the guild over their own, but remember that the stronger and more successful our team is, the faster/more loot you're gonna get!
Also, if you're a druid or pally, please don't roll on everything. We see a little of this already. You probably aren't going to get extensive use out of your second set, much less your third. My attitude is, you can't go wrong if you think about what is going to most greatly benefit the raid team.
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Post by apollor on Apr 1, 2009 10:00:24 GMT 10
Yeah defineatly a good idea to get some of our raiders able to shift the balance in the Tank:DPS:Heals ratios mid-runs. This could make things a lot simpler and quicker. It also saves us from having to get ppl in and saved for one or two fights, if we can just switch someone over to a DPS spec for a fight etc. This means more toons available for run's because they're not saved on half clears etc. I'm fairly keen on making my priest and DK dual-spec, because it would be useful for raids to have a dps (spriest) that can if needed switch to heals if required. And it means I can have a go at running heals on my priest and still being able to switch to DPS where 1 less healer won't hurt. Consider the Thaddius fight, if some of the healers could switch to DPS it would bring him down faster/easier etc. Healer spec DPS isn't the greatest But healers respeced to DPS isn't to bad. As for the DK, it means I could build myself a tanking toon and use him for party stuff when required. But at present I just don't bother with it because it's in the "to much hassle" basket. To start with tho, I probably won't be that keen on dual-speccing my pally, I really prefer Holy. But if I could get a recent Ret set together and learn it again, I might be convinced to switch now and then and do more than my 1600dps on Loatheb (in Holy) ;-)
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Post by gbsilk on Apr 1, 2009 14:04:01 GMT 10
I will also start by saying this is just my opinion. I KNOW that some people will disagree with this. This is probably also going to be wall of textish.
I agree with part of what Bad is saying and disagree with part of it.
I agree that there will be some benefit of dual specs to the raid. I also think that we should be looking at ways we can help out people who take a second, raid useful spec. I am not certain that there will be a massive amount of on-the-fly respeccing.
If you think of the current content how often do you imagine (other than trash which is basically irrelevant) you would swap? Maybe 1 healer less here or there - if you don't need so many healers on nearly every fight you should take more dps not respec your healers. Maybe 1 tank less? Blizzard have already said they are not going to design raids around the need for dual specs.
I am not nearly as sure as Bad is that this is correct. I definitely do not think our raid group benefits by people thinking of themselves as hybrids and trying to gear both specs as "main" specs.
What you end up with is someone who is substandard heals AND substandard dps - just slightly less bad in their 2nd spec than they would be if they geared one spec rather than the other. Of course in most cases, healers can do acceptable (but not great) dps in healing gear - the notable exception to this is pallies whose healing spec uses completely different gear than their dps spec. DPS on the other hand almost never have sufficient mana regen in their dps gear to be useful healers. Substandard geared tanks are even worse.
I simply cannot forsee setting up a raid and saying "we have 4 heals and 6 dps'ers who could heal so we're ok". If you need 6 or 7 healers for a specific fight its usually (4H aside) because you need a certain healing throughput. You end having to use more dps as healers to make up the output and you are worse off.
The other part where I disagree with Bad is the change to loot. I agree 100% that something needs to be done. I just don't think that is it. Mostly because I think it rewards the very behaviour that I believe to be the biggest problem with the loot list. People trying to, for want of a better word, "game" the list.
Some specs have much less competition for gear. We have 1/2 tree healers, 1 resto shammy, 1/2 plate dps. Bad's system allows these people to just "roll" and get main spec upgrades without suiciding. The only restraint is an unspoken honor system. I am just not sure that will be enough. We actually have rules now and that is still not enough.
I know that some people are of the opinion that this doesn't occur. I can tell you that right now I know it does. It happens in one form or another on a heap of raids. It doesn't happen more because we specifically pull people up on it at times. Its not malicious - its a flaw in the system that penalises people as much for taking small upgrades as for taking big ones. Once some people start holding out for the bigger upgrades, anyone who wants to get those upgrades must do the same. People still want to take the upgrades though so they roll "off-spec".
The other issue is this (for example) - you're the only resto druid in the raid group so you gear up quickly. You're not suiciding off the list that much because you don't have to (and why would you if you didn't have to?). Then what do you do? You start "bid"ing on dps gear. Lets say we have 3 boomkin - now we have 4 people rolling on that gear. Everyone gears up more slowly and one of those people will be healing most of the time.
Other people may start making decisions that are sub-optimal for the raid group (ie "I think I'd like to tank some 5 mans so I'll roll on tank gear tonight").
My counter suggestion would be two-fold. First up, 10 mans are permanently removed from the loot list. You /roll on gear - we'd ask people to pass in favour of their guildmates if it would be a big upgrade (basically like we do now). We'd ask people to keep our dual speccers in mind. This way there should be a steady stream of almost top tier loot heading to our "hybrids".
Second point, those who dual spec into a raid viable spec will have preference on "off-spec" loot over those who aren't dual specced. In return, you'll be expected to have that gear enchanted and gemmed optimally. You'll have consumables and glyphs for your off-spec and use them (and not some weird PVP hybrid spec either). You'd also be expected to have a reasonable gear set for your second set (so run some Naxx now for reasonable gear). We'd want you to be raid ready like anyone else.
They will not be equal to a main spec roll however. Everyone will keep a main spec, especially those that switch a lot. Ultimately because for most fights the team will be the same (and in the same spec). This will mean for shared slots they get gear a lot slower (a particular bug-bear of some). In truth I'd rather that than see some of our healers and tanks undergeared because some awesome healing gear is sitting in a dps backpack.
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Post by baddemon on Apr 2, 2009 2:26:57 GMT 10
I understand your hyposthesis, but I just don't think it matters all that much - certainly not enough to come up with an even more complicated system then we already have. We may not ask people to change much during the raid (although it would be silly not to fine tune to have the greatest benefit), with the nature of our guild, it is likely that I person who raids as enhancement today might have to go as resto tomorrow. In this respect, we may very commonly be asking if people are willing to come on their alternate specs. It is true that if a hybrid suicides himself everytime a piece of gear drops for either of his specs, his gear will be very watered down. I just have a little more faith in our raiders that they know what they will likely be doing MOST of the time during raids, and will greatly favor that gear - of course they will, becuase they're competitive and they don't want to water down their DPS, healing, etc. As far as people being able to "game" the system - I personally don't care. It's no different than if someone suicides themself for gear on this boss, and then suicides himself again on the next boss because no else rolls on it - he was already at the bottom of the list, so where is the sacrifice? If someone is lucky enough to not have competition for certain items, good for him. I don't really see this having any real impact. Frankly, I think we should just chill out and take a little more of the "big boy" approach here. Cost outweighs the benefit of creating a million little rules and caveats that no one fully understands. I suggest we just give the simple bid/roll system a try for a little while, and see how it goes. If we see a lot of loot drama, we'll have a government takeover and "fix" everything.
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Post by gbsilk on Apr 2, 2009 14:21:17 GMT 10
Bad I believe that this isn't motivated by blatant self interest (although no-one will benefit from this change more than you - well maybe Val) and I want to make it clear that I am not accusing you of this. However, I just don't see a benefit to either the raid group as a whole or to any individual who isn't dual specced - can you tell me why this would be a positive move for the guild (the looting change specifically NOT dual specs)? I see a few negatives (sub-optimal gear distribution and some classes having less chances at gear) but no positives. Why not just keep everything exactly how it is now and ask people to be conscious of dual specced people when rolling off-spec? Now in relation to a specific comment of yours they know what they will likely be doing MOST of the time during raids So isn't this just a MAIN SPEC? You can't have it both ways - either people will have a main spec or not. Why change the rule if you expect people to behave that way anyway? What benefit is there in the freedom to take off-spec gear over people's main spec? One other thing - suicide kings only works if you always go off the list. Being able to take main spec loot without suiciding, especially if only some people can do that, makes the whole system unfair.
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Post by Dansus on Apr 2, 2009 15:44:37 GMT 10
I just wanna put something out there. There should really only be a couple people who are raiding actively with two specs. What I mean by this is that while anyone is allowed to make a dual spec for themselves only a select group of people should have the job of maintaining two specs which they spec between "during" a raid. I suggest this because a lot of people have enough trouble maintaining one spec, gearing/enchanting/gemming. I'm not meaning to offend anyone by this comment but maintaining more than one spec and playing it properly in a raid environment is not easy mode. I'm talking mainly about people with tank and healer offsets, pure dps can do whatever they want I don't wanna tell you guys how to handle loot priority for dual spec offsets thats up to you. Though as I said above dedicated dual speccers should probally get slightly more priority than that guy thats just gonna use it to tank/heal a heroic.
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Post by kelial on Apr 3, 2009 5:28:38 GMT 10
My 2c on the issue.
Preface: I have a strong vested interest in the outcome of this debate... ~3k gold in re-specs on Kel thus far, I am a re-spec w.h.o.r.e. (for some reason If I remove the full stops it replaces the word with "Streetwalker" without consent... bah.)
In short, I both agree with the basic concept behind Bad's plan and find myself uncontrollably shivering at the potential issues which may spring up from an entirely unrestricted looting system.
Hence I would suggest a moderation of the free roll method. The main problem I see in opening up rolls freely is the possibility of top end loot being spread thin over various alt specs that are either unused or not raid viable at all to the point that gearing as a raid group is slowed.
We would like to assume that common sense dictates this would be an unheard of phenomenon and everyone would roll sensibly with personal and group progress in mind, assuming I trust common sense as far as I could throw it however, I would suggest a simple system to hopefully avoid the pitfalls of dual-specs while taking advantage of its flexibility and most importantly, keeping things fair.
I would put forward an example of a simple and efficient method of avoiding any chance of spreading the loot too thin by implementing a system whereby if a person wishes to gear an alternate spec, power to them. However in order to be accorded looting rights for that spec they must first gear themselves via heroics/crafting/off spec level rolls to a level where they can contribute successfully to the current standard level of content. They bring their time and effort in pixelated toon form to the raid and strengthen the raid group as a whole.
Further to this I would suggest alt toons be placed in the same system, both have a similar ability to spread loot but at the same time are highly useful for the flexibility in group composition they provide.
The easiest way I see to practically implement this, without over complicating it or giving any particular person or group a headache would be to make it a simple note in the social menu. Players seeking to be allowed main rights for a spec or alt would simply message an officer to that effect, the judgment on raid readiness could easily be made by a simple gear scan or by the player bringing said spec or alt to a raid, any raid viable alts or alt specs could then compete in the first set of rolls, non-raid viable alt specs and alts (read: Val's nub lock) compete in the second set.
For alt toons we could use the system already in place and reserve the alt rank for low level and non-raid ready 80 alts, once said alts are raid ready the officer in question would promote the alt to the same rank as the players main toon. For off-specs the same said officer could simply add the raid viable spec to the players guild note. Set and forget... well until loot comes around and your memory fails.
* Note that the concept of "raid viable" is not fixed and is relative to current content, when we were entering Naxx raid viable would have been the minimum gear required to get in and kill a few bosses while currently for comfortably farming Naxx and one night clears the expectations are notably higher. "Raid viable" really just means you are amongst the pack and not dead weight (read: Val's nub lock).
This perhaps comes across as more complicated than it is. Really it is just a way of allowing us slightly insane respeccers some freedom in using the loot list positions we earn to improve our performance over both specs, while maintaining reasonably straightforward guidelines to counter the occasional moment of deluded loot-hunterness that overrides common sense and causes us to make gnomes cry. That and I have recently been converted to the alt vs off spec having the same effect bandwagon, but I shall take a few days break before debating that one again.
Ultimately the amount of loot gained is the same as it is based on loot list position and over dilution is prevented by requiring that off speccers put in effort to remain competetive in order to be able to take items in the first rolls. Common sense would dictate all of this anywho, but again it is rather hard to throw an abstract concept. Aaaaanywho, that is the strategy I thought through late last night/early this morning as an example of a system that might be able to work in dual specs without causing a loot feeding frenzy... though possibly that might be a solution to hunter over-population. Take it for what it's worth and to Val I'll argue it in the morning...
Entertaining the possibility that this may in fact have been my 3c despite best efforts.
-Kel
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Post by baddemon on Apr 4, 2009 0:23:57 GMT 10
Well GB, by mentioning it, you're giving me a conviction without a trial. The truth is, I have a tank, a healer, and a pure DPS toon that I can play at will, so dual specs does nothing but make things more convenient for me.
I can tell you from experience that YES, gear gets watered down by gearing more than one spec. Look at my 3 toons - none of the three are geared as well as they could be, because many times I have brought a different toon than my main (often by request). Would it be fair to ask my alts to not roll on gear, even when asked to come to the raid? It's really no different than dual specs, except that at least there is a chance for some synergy of gear between specs when you're gearing a hybrid toon vs gearing 2 separate toons.
My opinions are shaped purely by my love for freedom (not kidding). I don't like people telling me what I can and can't do, even if I'm shooting myself in the foot. Micromanagement makes people unhappy, in general. I've stated before that I would have no problem with a pure roll system, because I believe it is not only the most fair, but also maximizes happiness. We've seen it many times in the past (anyone who has been loot master) a guilder getting quite upset because he/she doesn't understand what was going on with the loot system.
Trust me when I say that I am trying to put the raiders happiness first. Personally, I don't care which way we go as long as it doesn't cause a lot of drama. Dan may have been on to something before - maybe we should just pretend like there are no dual specs, and keep it main spec/off spec. Let's not get so caught up in "what's best for the raid team" that we forget about the raiders...
"Wars may be fought with weapons, but they are won by men." - General George Patton Jr
About "gaming the system" - what if an item drops that is an upgrade for the only person who can use it, but he refuses to take it because he is trying to preserve his spot on the list for another item? Do we give it to him anyway? Do we shard it to the detriment of the team? Do we suicide him even though he didn't want it? I've seen this situation several times, and I stick by the idea that people should be able to just roll on items if they don't want to give up their spot. If they happen to play a class/spec where there isn't much competition, luck them! Consider it payment for filling the gap in our raid team - and they'll gear up the fastest and won't be in anyone's way for loot. It'll even out eventually.
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Post by dunstort on Apr 4, 2009 19:44:43 GMT 10
I think the pure dps specs have the most to loose here. If I miss out on loot because someone has rolled on something for their offspec they hardly play then I would obviously be a little upset. Having said that they are still entitled to loot as much as everyone else, this is a casual guild remember and we are all playing for fun.
I don’t think that we have the right to tell anyone they cannot have a dual spec. If they do then responsibility lies with them to keep their second spec appropriately geared. This is really a moot issue though because if they aren’t, or they dont know how to play that spec correctly (ie never tanked before, can’t maintain dps) then they won’t be raiding that spec anyways as they will surely get replaced.
This is why I like Suicide Kings because if I’ve put in the effort then you can roll all you want, I’ll be at the top of the list =). So what do we do? Well why do we have to change anything?
By using a loot list everyone will have to wait there turn for loot. If someone really wants something they will Suicide for it, main spec or offspec. If they are highest then its theirs. If someone raids irregularly then they will be focusing on maintaining there position on the list for their main spec (because if they don’t they wont be able to keep up in Ulduar). If they raid twice as much and effectively have two main specs then more power to them.
This is a very simple approach and if it doesn’t work then we can change it. But a lot of you are going to (and deserve to) have well geared mains/offs so why make it too complicated. Now I know there is going to be pitfalls and holes in this proposal but at least its another opinion and we can form our final solution from everyones ideas, but please lets keep it simple.
Another thought, whichever way we go maybe we could put everyones spec in their comments so we can all be open about what our mains/offs are (ie Dunstort arc/frost). This may seem a little big-brotherish and it kinda is, but if everyone is open about what they are doing it may alleviate potential disagreements. If you want to change specs then it shouldn’t be a problem so long you’re geared to do so and you decide to raid in that spec most often.
Your feedback is appreciated,
-Dunstort
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Post by kurima on Apr 4, 2009 21:27:42 GMT 10
There will be holes in just about any "System" we create. For example... my first take on what I've read so far was ... Hybrids will end up getting more (per-cappata) loot than someone who isnt. Also, whats a "Viable Raid Spec"? Who makes this decision? I'm biased to my class and I believe any spec I have is a viable as I'm sure any class would feel the same.
The "Loot list" is what it is because it doesnt care about specs, desires, needs, opinions or anything else. The only thing it cares about is if you have been raiding and if you've recieved loot. I'm not a big fan of the current "Off-spec" system for the same reasons stated above. Its an exploit that is used for those in the situation where they can recieve loot and not get suicided for it. Not to mention, does every class have an off-spec? Nope. So here we are again, back to some people recieving more raid loot than others would(or could if they did so desire).
Also, what I think is a "Fair" system will not be seen as fair by all. And I wouldnt expect it to be. Which is why leaving ALL loot to the loot list regardless of spec, regardless of desire, regardless of dual-spec and especially regardless of opinion. This takes away the personal opinion factor. Take the idea of "Fair" out of the individuals hands and put it into an impartial objector that is the "loot list". You raid, you loot, nuff said. The choice of what spec youthe individual wants to gear up in is up to the individual... who owns and pays the monthly subscription fee to play. Not up to what he or she thinks about what a perfect-raid is or is not. If they are on the top of the list, then they loot.
The guild will get geared as fast as the guild is going to get geared regardless of what system we use. I can only surmise that "Fairness" is the root of this discussion. If we apply an individuals opinion to any system, this introduces their bias (whatever it may be) we're all human and would unknowingly or unwillingly bend a system to suit our personal beliefs.
To make a long story short(er). Recommend to leave the loot up to the loot list period. When gear is not rolled on, (its up to the member if they want something or not. On-spec or off-spec or whatever, it matters not) it gets sharded or put in the bank for somoene alt to use. Those who have dual specs. If you want to be effective in both. Work one up, then the other.
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Post by dunstort on Apr 5, 2009 0:02:58 GMT 10
The problem I see with no offspec rolls is 1. that if you are doing the right thing and getting gear for one spec, then an offspec piece drops and no-one wants it then its going to go to waste. I think that would be worse than someone looting everything. 2. There's more chance that loot will get 'watered down' as people may suicide themselve on a best in slot even if its an offspec, when that piece is needed on someone's main.
Have we thought about having a main spec and a offspec loot list, then sharding it if noone wants it. The only real advantage there is that the people that will be our main dual-speccers will have a system of evenly distributing loot. Or do you think that the same problem would arise? I guess it would.
Umm.... (sorry im typying this as i think it)
I do like your system Kuri, its just that I hate to see good loot go to waste.
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Post by Rakshasi on Apr 5, 2009 4:52:05 GMT 10
I honestly thought we'd just stick with the same system myself. Everyone just picks one "main" spec at a time, and gears for it. Then off-spec would work the same, your second most used spec.
If we have everyone gearing for two specs at a time, it will twice as long roughly for someone to get geared to move through content. No crime, just look for slower progress.
And those who decide not to dual spec, get access to half the loot, which doesn't exactly seem fair.... so keeping a main spec (having people change what their 'main' spec is nightly, is even an option) gets around this and doesn't leave anyone out.
Bad idea?
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Post by dunstort on Apr 5, 2009 10:22:09 GMT 10
Nope I reckon that's right on the money. My vote is to keep thins the way they are.
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Post by thoragk on Apr 5, 2009 11:22:02 GMT 10
+1 for staying the same. Dual Specs is just a cheaper and faster way to do exactly what we're doing already - using hybrids to fill a role fill for a point in time.
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Post by seveneves on Apr 5, 2009 22:25:16 GMT 10
I'd like to throw my hat in for a second. And please forgive me, I wanted to be concise, but I failed worse than any hunter ever could.
Continuing comments about what is 'fair'.
Fairness is saying "For every single piece of loot - every single person in the raid has the exact same chance to acquire said loot."
Fairness is not saying "This guy has been here longer, so too bad new guy - you don't have a chance."
There were 25 (or 10) people in the raid who helped tank, heal and dps. This led to the demise of a boss and the acquisition of loot. To say that because someone came to the raid last week, gives them a higher chance at loot this week is abhorrent. What any player did last week has absolutely no impact on how the team performed this week.
A hierarchical system is probably the least 'fair' we can have. It is biased towards those who raid more often and people can 'roll off spec' when it is in fact a main spec upgrade. In reality, a loot list makes people actively think about loot, rather than raiding - or dare I say it, enjoying themselves!
To be frank, I don't give a rats arse if you raid 5 times a week. Actually, that's not true, I appreciate everyone that comes whenever they can. But this is where there is a very definite difference in what is 'fair'. Fairness doesn't favour one person over the next, fairness is unbiased. Fairness is equality, not hierarchy.
I don't care what anyone says - you can definitely argue with the loot list, as it can be manipulated, or even potentially screwed up. No one on earth can argue with /roll. Loot drops, if you want it, you get a random number given to you. If you are on top, the loot is yours. Plain and simple. No mods, no playing the system, no arguments. "Waaaaaahhhhh, but I'm unlucky, I never win a roll". Bull. Shite. Being a pessimist doesn't make a pure roll system 'unfair'. There is a large difference between unfair and unfortunate. (NB I'm willing to have the statistical fairness debate here, should I be prompted)
And now, for all of you clothies jumping up and down, relax. If you think that a plate class is going to take preference over you for loot, think again. There are a couple of simple guidelines that are basically common sense for a system like this. Cloth wearers always take preference when cloth drops, leather wearers for leather and so on. So no one is going to steal your precious loot.
<start actual dual spec opinion>
This is where dual spec comes in though. Do we let a shadow priest roll on healing gear when a second holy priest needs it? Well, in my head, the answer is fairly straightforward. You loot what you walked in with. So if you enter a raid as a healer, you are rolling on healing loot for the night. This way it's no different to having two completely separate characters. The only real contention is what to do when the raid leader specifically asks people to change spec for a given fight:
1. Change nothing. You were invited to the raid as a tank, so therefor you only roll on tank drops. Simple. Or;
2. The player is allowed to choose one spec to roll on for that one fight. So if a tank is asked to switch out to a dps spec, then they can choose to roll on either tank or dps drops, but not both.
In the event that no one wants a given item for their 'walk in' spec, then we move to 'secondary' spec rolls. So all those with a relevant dual spec would roll on the item. And then finally those without a secondary spec would roll.
</opinion>
Back to fairness.
Say we're in a raid with a holy pally and a ret pally and no other spell plate wearers. A ret piece drops, the ret pally already has it and passes. The holy pally could use it for a secondary spec. No one else in the raid can even equip it. Oh, and obviously the item is BOP - like every single piece of raid loot, apart from a select few items. So, it can't go to the bank. At this point, what is fair? Sharding the item, forcing the holy pally to suicide, or allowing them to 'just have it'.
If you say sharding, you are a greedy, jealous person. If you say suicide, you're just jealous. If you can't wear the item, what bit of difference does it make to you if someone gets it? And why does it matter if it sits in their bank unused? How does that really affect you? Oh, that's right, it doesn't...
We are a casual guild. This means, among other things, we have no attendance requirements. If someone (and we have a few) can only raid once a week, why do they deserve to get penalised?
"But sev, put yourself in the shoes of the guy who has been waiting ages to get 'that one drop'". Been there countless times, doesn't bother me that much. You know why...? Basically, there are people who play because they enjoy the company and enjoy raiding as a team. There are also people who just want to be on top of dps/heals. Now don't get me wrong, I'm all for people pushing themselves to their best - but not to the detriment of other people's gaming experience.
I would like to think I am in a guild with people who enjoy raiding with their guildies.
For anyone who puts loot or damage meters at a higher priority needs to consider why they are here. There are plenty of hardcore guilds that will meticulously distribute points and you will get that loot at a predefined date. They will praise you for being top of the meters and when you die, you'll be greeted by an uncountable number of virgins...
So, in conclusion, it's only a game.
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Post by kurima on Apr 5, 2009 22:50:56 GMT 10
And those who decide not to dual spec Hadnt even thought about that... Every post here seems to assume that everyone is dual spec'd /shrug
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Post by kurima on Apr 5, 2009 23:18:34 GMT 10
I'd like to throw my hat in for a second. And please forgive me, I wanted to be concise, but I failed worse than any hunter ever could. Continuing comments about what is 'fair'. fair –adjective 1. free from bias, dishonesty, or injustice: a fair decision; a fair judge. Fairness is saying "For every single piece of loot - every single person in the raid has the exact same chance to acquire said loot." Every Qualified person would have the same chance to be at the top of the list. As the current system is designed. Newcomers by design start at the bottom of the list.Fairness is not saying "This guy has been here longer, so too bad new guy - you don't have a chance." New guy does have a chance. This arguement has nothing to do with dual specs. Your saying the current system and any future system that does not give a new member of the guild an equal shot next to someone who worked his/her way up the loot list is flawed. Disagree. Newcomers start at the bottom and work their way up like everyone else.There were 25 (or 10) people in the raid who helped tank, heal and dps. This led to the demise of a boss and the acquisition of loot. To say that because someone came to the raid last week, gives them a higher chance at loot this week is abhorrent. What any player did last week has absolutely no impact on how the team performed this week. The guild loot system is based on our guild, not just a single raid. What you are suggesting is pug raid loot rules.A hierarchical system is probably the least 'fair' we can have. It is biased towards those who raid more often and people can 'roll off spec' when it is in fact a main spec upgrade. In reality, a loot list makes people actively think about loot, rather than raiding - or dare I say it, enjoying themselves! Yes, weight is given to those who raid more than those who dont. (they move up the list faster considering how the list works... the current raid is a subset of the "Big list". Even those who raid twice a month move up the list when they raid. So its probably pretty easy to say that in the worst case every 3rd raid or so they would in a position to win a "Best in slot" item. And in EVERY raid they will be in a position to win an upgrade. An avenue is provided for anyone to move up the list faster. Show up more often. (this hasnt been a problem up to this point and doubt it will be on in the future so I'm not sure why this even is coming up)To be frank, I don't give a rats arse if you raid 5 times a week. Actually, that's not true, I appreciate everyone that comes whenever they can. But this is where there is a very definite difference in what is 'fair'. Fairness doesn't favour one person over the next, fairness is unbiased. Fairness is equality, not hierarchy. Can I call you Frank? I don't care what anyone says - you can definitely argue with the loot list, as it can be manipulated, or even potentially screwed up. No one on earth can argue with /roll. Loot drops, if you want it, you get a random number given to you. If you are on top, the loot is yours. Plain and simple. No mods, no playing the system, no arguments. "Waaaaaahhhhh, but I'm unlucky, I never win a roll". Bull. Shite. Being a pessimist doesn't make a pure roll system 'unfair'. There is a large difference between unfair and unfortunate. (NB I'm willing to have the statistical fairness debate here, should I be prompted) And now, for all of you clothies jumping up and down, relax. If you think that a plate class is going to take preference over you for loot, think again. There are a couple of simple guidelines that are basically common sense for a system like this. Cloth wearers always take preference when cloth drops, leather wearers for leather and so on. So no one is going to steal your precious loot. And as per our conversation the other night. YES /roll is infact a fair system. This I'm not argueing however, the timeline needed for fairness to come to a head could be quite long for some people who are unlucky with rolls. The reason behind the loot list being implemented in the first place (if I'm not mistaken and feel free to correct me if I am) is to better distribute the loot. I'm beginning to thing the mechanics of the loot list is being distorted in some areas...<start actual dual spec opinion> This is where dual spec comes in though. Do we let a shadow priest roll on healing gear when a second holy priest needs it? Well, in my head, the answer is fairly straightforward. You loot what you walked in with. So if you enter a raid as a healer, you are rolling on healing loot for the night. This way it's no different to having two completely separate characters. The only real contention is what to do when the raid leader specifically asks people to change spec for a given fight: 1. Change nothing. You were invited to the raid as a tank, so therefor you only roll on tank drops. Simple. Or; 2. The player is allowed to choose one spec to roll on for that one fight. So if a tank is asked to switch out to a dps spec, then they can choose to roll on either tank or dps drops, but not both. someone keeps a list at the beginning of each raid? hmmm administrative overhead... would work, but isnt that what we do now?In the event that no one wants a given item for their 'walk in' spec, then we move to 'secondary' spec rolls. So all those with a relevant dual spec would roll on the item. And then finally those without a secondary spec would roll. The off-spec roll has returned! =) </opinion> Back to fairness. Say we're in a raid with a holy pally and a ret pally and no other spell plate wearers. A ret piece drops, the ret pally already has it and passes. The holy pally could use it for a secondary spec. No one else in the raid can even equip it. Oh, and obviously the item is BOP - like every single piece of raid loot, apart from a select few items. So, it can't go to the bank. At this point, what is fair? Sharding the item, forcing the holy pally to suicide, or allowing them to 'just have it'. If you say sharding, you are a greedy, jealous person. If you say suicide, you're just jealous. If you can't wear the item, what bit of difference does it make to you if someone gets it? And why does it matter if it sits in their bank unused? How does that really affect you? Oh, that's right, it doesn't... Lots of opinion here... one system for all regardless of jealosy or greed. We are a casual guild. This means, among other things, we have no attendance requirements. If someone (and we have a few) can only raid once a week, why do they deserve to get penalised? [/b] Take a look at how those people move up the loot list... or better yet, check to see what they've recieved regardless of their position. People who raid more, loot more, so those who dont raid as much are Actually in a better position to get loot since the constant raiders are gearing up and will, in most cases, pass on stuff to go to someone lower on the list. Doesnt sound like a penalty to me.[/b] "But sev, put yourself in the shoes of the guy who has been waiting ages to get 'that one drop'". Been there countless times, doesn't bother me that much. You know why...? Basically, there are people who play because they enjoy the company and enjoy raiding as a team. There are also people who just want to be on top of dps/heals. Now don't get me wrong, I'm all for people pushing themselves to their best - but not to the detriment of other people's gaming experience. everyone has their own reason for playing/raiding. And they're allowed to. I would like to think I am in a guild with people who enjoy raiding with their guildies. you are, but folks still have other reason other than being with the high quality members of War Machine =) For anyone who puts loot or damage meters at a higher priority needs to consider why they are here. There are plenty of hardcore guilds that will meticulously distribute points and you will get that loot at a predefined date. They will praise you for being top of the meters and when you die, you'll be greeted by an uncountable number of virgins... Damage meters, Healing meters... Whats that got to do with me calling you Frank?So, in conclusion, it's only a game.[/quote]
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Post by seveneves on Apr 6, 2009 2:53:52 GMT 10
I think we just see the world from a different angle, Kurima.
I base my comments on the fact that I prefer to treat people as equals without question. Whereas you seem to place a high importance on proving oneself and social hierarchy. Or simply put, I'm shoulder to shoulder, you're heel to toe.
I think one of the worst things for someone to say in life is 'Well, I did it hard, so now you do too.' From my point of view, if I was the one that did it hard, I would do everything in my power to make life easier for anyone following in my footsteps.
I'd reply to your comments, but there probably isn't much point. We'll only end up repeating ourselves.
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Post by dunstort on Apr 6, 2009 4:01:14 GMT 10
Sev I found that last comment a little harsh, but written word can come across that way unintentionally. Either way it has kind of riled me up a bit. I agree with a lot of what Kurima said and I don't think you can make those assumptions from comments from this post. Feel free to correct me Kuri if you indeed do feel that you 'prefer not to treat people as equals' and 'place a high importance on proving oneself and social hierarchy'. I certainly don't!
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Post by Dansus on Apr 6, 2009 7:30:55 GMT 10
Been there countless times, doesn't bother me that much. You know why...? Basically, there are people who play because they enjoy the company and enjoy raiding as a team. There are also people who just want to be on top of dps/heals. Now don't get me wrong, I'm all for people pushing themselves to their best - but not to the detriment of other people's gaming experience. I would like to think I am in a guild with people who enjoy raiding with their guildies. For anyone who puts loot or damage meters at a higher priority needs to consider why they are here. There are plenty of hardcore guilds that will meticulously distribute points and you will get that loot at a predefined date. They will praise you for being top of the meters and when you die, you'll be greeted by an uncountable number of virgins... So, in conclusion, it's only a game. This is a comment I see many times while browsing forums. Are you saying that you can't top dps/heals and have fun at the same time? Myself and many other players "min/maxers" will do as much as we can top the meters. This is how we play and what we find fun and it really is. Theres nothing self centered about it, provided your not screwing others out of loot in the process which is why I had problems with the loot list system. Not because I wanted all the loot but because it was because it didn't distribute loot "correctly". Ideally you want to be gearing up your tanks first then healers then dps. There's not a whole lot as far as I know preventing people rolling on items that aren't particuarly good for them and thus screwing others who could get a bigger upgrade from it. While its not so important for current content I believe it'll become a bigger problem in Ulduar. The /roll system isn't any better unless there's strict guidelines in place about who can roll on what before it goes to offset. Oh and the bit about armor preference is pretty "unfair" for some classes, for example unless Blizzard learns to do itemization correctly the BiS items for boomkins will continue to be cloth.
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Post by kurima on Apr 6, 2009 8:44:01 GMT 10
Sev, as I understand it you want the same thing that everyone else here wants and thats for a system to be in place that will allow for everyone to enjoy the spoils of their labor equally.
You believe a /roll system is the best way to achieve that.
That is my understanding. If I am wrong then I was way off the mark in the first place and humbly request that you once again tell me what your opinion is in a way that I can clearly understand. But, lets just say that I do understand you correctly for the time being... or at least to the end of this post.
I've agreed time and time again that /roll IS a fair system over what could be a large stretch of time given the sheer numbers we're talking. Its the large stretch of time where some people (could be me, could be you.... who knows?) will walk away empty handed raid after raid. Its here that I feel the roll system will not work well by leaving people empty handed for long periods of time. Your concern about those who raid only once a week are not given an equal shake at loot when (by design) they are. They don't go down on the list, ever, unless of course they receive some loot they desire. In which case the process starts over. In any system there must be a starting point. A point in which everyone begins the process. In the case of the loot list, they start at the bottom. (or the top, or middle, either way makes no difference. Its just a common ground for everyone to start the process)
Moving onto your previous reply. Attempting to take personal pot-shots at me by insinuating that I do not treat people equally is not only insulting to me personally, its not what this issue is about. (if you have a personal problem with me, you are free to take it up with me in private. I feel an open forum is not the place for it.) This is about what system will work for everyone. Its not about me, its not about you its about whats best for everyone. You don't need to agree with my opinion nor do I have to agree with yours. However, in order to have a productive conversation about a subject we (thats everyone involved) must agree to respect each others opinion and refrain from personal attacks. For anyone who may ever doubt this about me, rest assured that even though I may disagree with you on a particular issue, (I may even say I think your nuts!) never does this weigh against my respect for you personally. Its just bad form. (same with GB's comments on a different and unrelated thread. I'm still disappointed about that and doubt I'll ever grant him the level respect he once had from me.)
Sev, you don't feel comfortable with my view on the subject? Its okay, I don't mind. Pick it apart, run it over with a truck if you like. But the moment that you begin pointing fingers and name calling is the moment that productive conversation has completely broken down.
And on a more personal note. I'm both surprised and deeply disappointed that folks I held in such high regard have resorted to personal insults and character attacks rather than respecting the others opinion and engaging in productive dialog.
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Post by castus on Apr 6, 2009 10:54:24 GMT 10
First, something that has nothing to do with loot or dual spec:
It is very hard, even near impossible, to infer intent, tone, emotion, meaning, etc in this medium of communication. Please keep that in mind when posting and replying to posts. If you are unsure where someone is coming from, what they meant in a particular post, or what their personal philosophy is on a particular matter, please ask for clarification. Please refrain as best you can from assuming anything and including those assumptions in your posts. Let's all remember treat everyone with respect, exibit restraint when necessary, error on the side of caution and give people the benfit of the doubt.
Next, on matters of loot and dual specs. The implementation of dual specs will have no bearing on how Blizzard will design raid encounters, i.e. mid-raid re-speccing will not be a required strategy or tactic needed to overcome boss fights. It is strictly a mechanic designed to ease the financial burden of frequent re-speccers (Kel anyone?). Many guilds, especially casual ones, cannot always meet the basic raiding compositions and often have too many of one sepc and not enough of another. This makes it less of a shot in the guild members wallet, plain and simple.
Many guilds have no problems meeting basic raid compositions. Given that, some fights just don't need 2-3 tanks, or are very healing intensive. Some do or are. Dual specs will allow a cheaper and faster way to fine tune your raid composition for those specific fights. Nice, yes. Necessary, no.
Currently, we all have main specs and some of us have off specs. Certain DPS classes have no off specs. Some of us will choose to dual spec, and some won't.
Bottom line is: dual speccing is not a required component for raiding (even progression raiding), some classes don't have an off spec, and some people will choose not to dual spec. Therefore, it is my opinion that we don't change or modifiy the loot system to accomodate dual spec in any way shape or form, period.
Third, I'd like to give my two cents on our loot system. Following what I have just said about dual speccing and loot, everyone will have a main spec and an off spec. Main specs get priority, period. If no one needs it for a main spec upgrade, then it is open for off spec rolls. In other words, the system continues to function in its current form. If we decide to change it, I don't think the addition of the dual spec mechanic is a valid reason to.
Lastly (yes, I heard your collective sighs of relief), I fully appreciate the benefits and pitfalls of the varied and diverse methjods of looting that exist in the game today. I have experienced most of them (DKP, SK, /roll, loot council, etc). I'll be honest when I say that sometimes I don't like our current system. But we can't look at the loot system in a vacuum. The system has to considered along with many other factors too numerous to list here. I'll touch on a couple of specifics with regards to other loot systems. The current system can't be used to punish other players like DKP can. A loot council approach can't be used unless you have a smaller, extremely consistent group of 25-30 raiders that show up 99% of the time. The current system can and does reward more casual raiders that can only make it occasionally. At the same time, I feel it also benefits and rewards consistent attendence than a straight /roll system would.
Therefore, I recommend no changes at this time. If you would like clarifications of any portions of this post, or would simply like to discuss specifc parts, well, I'm on here everyday.
James
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Post by seveneves on Apr 6, 2009 14:51:25 GMT 10
Well, part of the reason I left the game last time is because I made it into a position of responsibility.
I am therefore removing myself from any and all conversations regarding the game. I would like to continue raiding, but consider me a silent partner.
Apologies to anyone I've offended.
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Post by gbsilk on Apr 6, 2009 15:39:03 GMT 10
I've read everything on here again (on a personal note I do want to emphasise my points in the other post and I hope Kurima understands that what I said was not in any way intended to be a personal attack, just a poorly worded joke).
I really wish I was more concise - maybe someone can post a tl:dr version
It seems to me like there are two issues being raised here. The first is what changes, if any, need to be made to our loot system to accomodate dual specs. The second is whether our current loot system (independently of dual specs) is appropriate.
[glow=red,2,300]Dual Specs[/glow] I do believe that Bad wants what is best for the raid team (I also believe that Sev and Kurima want what is best for the raid team - Dan may be responsible for the downfall of society as we know it but, as a kiwi, that really is expected of him)
The problem that Bad highlighted (people not suiciding / rolling on minor upgrades) is a problem with the SK system. Its common to basically any variant of it. It comes about because the penalty for taking a side-grade is the same as taking a b.i.s upgrade.
Now I've made an issue before about people gaming the list. I think that at least some of the time the main spec vs offspec issue can be clouded. What about side grades? As a healer there is merit in a higher regen set and a throughput set. Some items that are initially main spec downgrades may be useful (eg if you are moving from 1 tier to the next). Are these all main specs?
One of my biggest concern is when people roll on gear that is clearly not itemised for them - especially when they take that loot of other guildies for whom it is itemised. This is the main reason I really don't want unrestricted rolls. People will take poorly itemised gear (or genuine off-set gear) for a number of reasons. Sometimes its because its their last blue, or they haven't gotten gear in a while or just because they want to complete their offspec set.
When I was the raid leader (and I still think its true now) I wanted to try and maximise the loot benefit to the raid. Sure, its important to consider what each raider wants - which is why you can't just have the raid leader make all the loot rules, but in that position you're focus is to lead the guild's progress (while keeping in mind the guild's objectives). Maybe that was one of my failings as raid leader but I still think you need a voice making those decisions. Everyone is happier when the loot is coming in than when its not at all.
[glow=red,2,300]Fairness[/glow] I can actually see both sides of Sev and Kurima's points. I've made no secret that I prefer the /roll system (provided that it is tempered by some goodwill to see poor rollers badly in need of upgrades get looked after). In isolation, I might even be able to agree that /roll gives everyone a "more equal" chance for that particular item. I am not sure that there is no place in the fairness discussion for how much effort you put into getting a piece.
The main reason for using SK though is that it removes some of the randomness of loot. If you show up, and the loot drops, you should know if you'll get it. I do understand Sev's point though, its why I am concerned about running 10s off the same list. Not everyone will have the same chance to move up the list. This is the real advantage that a regular raider has. They move up much faster than a non-regular does. It means that I may end up ahead of some other pally literally every time they raid. I do think though that the fact I can only take 1 piece before they are in front of me should mean that the system is not unfair. It certainly helps the raid team in general (which helps everyone cause there is much more loot).
I don't want to get into the whole "why we raid" debate. Suffice it to say that people raid for different reasons and we should all accept that. I mean I fully accept that, at the moment, pally healing is probably stupidly OP. However, I still enjoy laughing, joking and talking smack with you guys all night and rocking the metres at the same time. I enjoy challenging encounters and that is probably part of the frustration that I feel when we fail at stuff that is "easy". Sure its not real, it means nothing at all that I did 40m points of healing, but its fun to be good at stuff sometimes even if its completely meaningly right (I remember one night having a 1hr competition to see who could flick the most beer coasters into their hands - ps I am still a little bitter I came second but my mate has like a primate for his uncle or something. His fingers are dead set longer than his feet)?
More on topic, what I really want to avoid going forward is even more of a squeeze on cloth sp gear. It is simply far harder to gear up a clothie than any other class because there is so much competition for each piece. One problem is that druids _do_ roll on a lot of cloth gear. We are sharding / offspecing far too much sp leather because our druids have equivalent cloth gear already.
Its a problem that I see being visited on other classes too come 3.1. Everything I've read and seen indicates that the best itemised pieces for holy pallies will be elemental shammy gear. The t8 pally gear is a downgrade for crit and int while having more sp, stam and mp5. Its been pretty conclusively proven that int and crit are much better regen mechanics for holy pallies than mp5 (which is relatively much more expensive in itemisation terms). Ele shammy gear has crit, sp and haste - usually with a goodly supply on int. Ironically, the other type of gear that has those stats is mage cloth. Am expecting all cloth gear to have spirit come 3.1 however.
So how do we deal with that? I don't like seeing classes with limited armor choices lose out to classes with more, but at the same time I don't want to systematically deny our druids (and pallies come 3.1) b.i.s gear.
Another point, I think there is a line between making the game a responsibility and not talking about it at all. No-one should feel any expectations from the guild at all. We want you to want to raid not to have to raid.
I do think we all benefit from hearing people's opinion on how things are being run though. Like Castus, I enjoy chatting about the game. Part of what I like about our guild is the community feel of it. I don't want people to feel chased away by the forums - quite the opposite.
Wow my post is such a lot of nonsense. I am half of a mind to just delete it all. Does it make any sense to anyone?
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Post by Dansus on Apr 6, 2009 16:05:14 GMT 10
Dan may be responsible for the downfall of society as we know it but, as a kiwi, that really is expected of him) Lol, I'll try to keep my posts less ranty in future. They're just issues I had with SK.
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Post by gbsilk on Apr 6, 2009 16:14:09 GMT 10
OMG please tell me I didn't do it again - I figured if I was even more outrageous no-one could possibly think I was serious?
Seriously I need to wear a bell around my neck or something.
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Post by castus on Apr 6, 2009 16:32:36 GMT 10
On the topic of "side grades" specifically (with a heavy tanking bias)...
I can think of four different sets of gear a tank can use based on the situation. These sets spend their item budgets on different stats obviously. The first set is your MT set. This is the set that has the best all-around stats, usually BIS gear. You spend the majority of your boss fights in this gear. The next set is a trash MOB tanking/AOE tanking set which is used for tanking trash and large numbers of mobs, i.e. all the adds during Sarth. This set has tons of block value and higher than needed block rating. Why? Those adds don't hit hard and it's entirely possible to mitigate ALL the damage with a high enough block vlaue, meaning the tank is taking barely any damage at all. A third set would be an EH or effective health set. This set has more stamina (higher health pool) while sacrificing some avoidance, usually block rating and value. This set is used when tanking hard hitting bosses like dragons. The fourth set is a threat set. This set is all about what generates the most DPS/TPS. It it used primarily for DPS races when incoming damage is easily healed or not a priority. I am not saying that there are four pieces of gear for each slot. All I am saying is that some pieces of equivalent gear are better suited for certain situations, i.e. it's more specialized.
Sorry about the long-winded tank gear discussion but it was necessary to illustrate my point. Tanks have very specialized gear. I don't know about other classes, but I assume that they have sidegradeable gear too.
Now with that out of the way...
Is there a benefit to grabbing a sidegrade? YES! For the reasons above, it allows the tank to specialize his gear for the fight and overall be more effective and increase his survivability.
Would I suicide myself off the list to grab one? NO! Obviously that's a personal choice. But as a tank, upgrades are few and far between. Before you shout out "Well what about the other night when all that tanking crap dropped?" Remember I said upgrades, and for some people those were upgrades, but for others they were sidegrades.
Bottom line is main spec tanks will get more value from sidegrades than any off spec ever will. How many offspec tanks have had to use their tank gear in a raid? So, yes, I do cringe every time a see a sidegrade go to an offspec based on the offspec /roll system in place. Main specs just can't justify getting sent down to the bottom unless it's a clear upgrade.
I do appreciate GB's concerns about gaming the list however. It will most likely happen. But to be honest, I have almost a full epic set of healing plate that I almost never use. I would have been more than willing to let a healer have any of that gear as a sidegrade without having him suicided down to the bottom when I know at least he will use it more than I will, even if it is situational.
I would like to hear other peoples thoughts about sidegrades because I need to be educated on how it affects other classes besides tanking classes.
Thanks, James
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Post by apollor on Apr 6, 2009 17:16:10 GMT 10
Sooo much text.. so little time...
Some thoughts -
1. I like the idea of keeping main-spec/off-spec rolls, because:
People playing a 'main' spec 'most' of the time, tend to naturally excel at that spec. Simply put, you're more practiced in the finer workings of that spec and you just do better.
So playing to ones strengths, preserving the ability for main-spec's to roll off first on gear means that main specs do get geared in preference. And that counts because those toons with those specs will be raiding 'more often'.
2. It's hard to build an off-set with constant Alt's rotating into raids.
One of the biggest difficulties in building an off-set, or even trying to fit out an off-spec so you can switch to it and re-declare it your main-spec is that you have to wait for the main-spec rollers to have their go, pass and then hope to pick it up over time.
If we had the exact same 25 toons raiding week in week out. This would be fairly simple to achieve because it just relies on the loot actually dropping.
The problem is however that Alt-toons have main-specs and as such get to roll on gear first up. Now the loot-list means that Main-toons and Alt-toons are forced to share gear over time, it makes the distribution of loot fair. Also remember that a lot of the time Alt's come through well after a lot of the main-toon main-specs are well geared out, so they're picking up the drops that would just get DE'd anyway.
However, if you're trying to build and off-spec set, it can take literally forever to get a piece because you can't bid your position on the list to ensure you get a first roll dib on it against the rollover of alt's coming through. So how can you make that fair? It's not easy in the least. Ignoring dual-spec changes that are coming for a moment consider these rolling styles:
a: main-spec rolls - (alt's allowed). suicide if you win. Off-spec rolls second. Current system - great for mains, allows alt's to gear as viable raiding toons which gives compositional flexibility. But for people that don't have alt's, but prefer off-specing their main-toon it means limited or time-extended access to drops.
b: main-spec rolls - (alt's allowed). suicide if you win. Off-spec's of non-alt players can suicide.
Slight modification - still means you have on-spec rolls fist. still means alt's can gear off against main toons. Loot list keeps it fair and even. With the added benefit to those without Alt's to be able to suicide just like normal to have a fair first-roll chance at a specific drop. Downside is - for a newly-raiding main-spec toon they potentially miss out on the drop to someone taking it for an off-spec.
c: main-spec, main-toons. then off-specs and alts.
Means you gear your mains in their main specs first rolls. and if those all pass all the alt's and off-specs roll off against each other. Great for the off-spec people trying to build a good set. But it takes the Alt's down a peg because now they don't complete on 1st rolls. Problem is that a toon is a toon, you're putting up the effort and time to raid, whilst you're not on your main-toon you are making the effort so why be penalized.
d: main-toon main/dual-specs and alt's all roll 1st up. list decides. off-specs next, then sharding.
This means you keep Alt's and Mains on a level playing field. It means you acknowledge those with viable raid-capable off-specs (the dual-spec'ers) and give them equal footing to roll.
Downside is you now dilute and penalize the main-toon single-spec players who focus on making that their best toon/spec. It means that a great item can be sitting on a rarely played alt or off-spec.
Keep those four things in mind for a moment while I digress into "dual-specing".
In the long distant days of lvl 60 cap WoW. Respec'ing was really for the rich, or the limited few. 50g was -a lot- of gold back then. Even at lvl 70 and 80 cap WoW. 50g -every- time to change is a lot of gold. It adds up.
Ignore those wonderful people with the capacity to religiously grind their daily's, work the AH, farm and sell materials and lavishly throw money at each other. Yes you have a lot of gold to throw about, respec's don't scare you. But well... lucky you. For the rest of us, in reality it's an issue.
Enter the knight in slightly dented armor - Dual-Specs. This means a few simple great things.
a. Fast - no portals, and summoning to get someone to flip specs for a raid spot tonight. b. Cheap - they can pay an up front fee and respec for life. Perfect!
The potential of these two things combined means that it is now more feasible to have 1 or 2 people switch things up mid-raid to make things more tuned. Not necessarily easier or better.
e.g. Bad could raid on his DK all night as DPS, fully dps talented getting full benefit of his glyphs and all that. And then when we get to Boss X, flip to a tank and fill that roll for a single fight.
Or Sidara could raid as boomkin, then 1/2 way through one of the healers has to leave for the night, we have a guildy dps available, so Sidara can flip to heals and we're good2go.
So with all that in mind, dual-specs means that those few people that currently work hard at making their off-set's raid viable and go through the 5 min rigmarole of respecing for the raid are now more than ever going to want to chase those off-spec items when the drop.
- Main-toon's main-specs are fine, they are ensured the chance to get loot. - Alt's are a valid and useful raid member - it means people don't have to sit out and watch. - Off-specs are valid, viable members of the team too.
- Alt's have the option of pug'ing raids to make up their gear. - So there's more opportunity. - But it means finding the time, and that's not always possible.
- Off-spec mains' are locked into guild raids. - you can't run 2 or 3 other raids to have a chance at gear. - but you're welcome to roll an Alt, bring it to guild raids and snap up all the drops. 'Whore!'
When you look at all of this, and try and weight it all up and try and keep it fair. You realize that no matter what system, what roll style you will always make one group happy, and dilute and shun another group for drops. It's a simple reality that you can't get all the loot all of the time...
Personally, whilst I want to see those that regularly do play off-specs have a chance at getting loot. I don't want to be in a position of rolling off on healing gear to an off-spec for my main-toon.
I like and enjoy having Alt's so that when we have lots of healers on for the night, I can still join you guys in a raid. I level and make and attempt to gear my alt's reasonably before fronting to a raid in the hope that I can contribute well and maybe get lucky on a drop. Best of all, the loot list means you will all get something before I get anything.
So my vote is... and it's been a long diatribe getting here... That dual-spec'ing is nothing more than a time saver, and a personal advantage to ppl that like to pve/pvp flip, or tank/heal flip, or tank/dps flip on regular occasion. That we keep the idea of main-spec, off-spec rolls. And that Alt's are a welcome and valued contribution to a raid. And whilst I would love to see off-spec's have the ability to offer to suicide for a chance at an item, I don't want to have to roll against them on my main-toon, main-spec for a B.i.S item... ever.
-Apo.... and with that.. I'm going home..
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Post by Nephrael on Apr 6, 2009 18:04:29 GMT 10
*cries*
Any toons that are dual spec'ed should be banned from the guild.
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Post by Dansus on Apr 6, 2009 18:07:24 GMT 10
OMG please tell me I didn't do it again - I figured if I was even more outrageous no-one could possibly think I was serious? Seriously I need to wear a bell around my neck or something. K I'm a bit tired is that about me? if so I wasn't taking you seriously. When I reread my post it sounded like I was being an ass. I'm likely just making myself look even stupider though
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