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Post by mae1984 on Feb 20, 2009 11:43:49 GMT 10
So last night an issue that we have not particularly had to deal with for a while came up which was 'should someone be allowed to roll main spec on an item which is not itemised for their class/spec'. I feel the need to bring this up because I believe it sets a dangerous precedent. In my opinion items should ALWAYS go to the person they are most optimised for first. If an item has mp5 then it is ALWAYS healers first... If an item has Hit then it is ALWAYS dps first... If it has only a combination of crit, haste, spell power and these days spirit then it is pretty much free for all though I expect everyone should know the preferred stats to stack for their class and spec and still consider whether the item is right for them. Only when no one who the item is designed for needs it is it acceptable for a class/spec that it is not optimised for to roll on it main spec as an upgrade for a crap item. This is my personal opinion and I think it needs to become part of our loot rules. We have always enforced this by mentioning when people were rolling for inappropriate gear generally allowing them to retract their roll if more appropriate people needed the item. For consistency though it needs to be official so that we do not ask one person to pass on an inappropriate item before handing an inappropriate item to someone else. I am not trying to have a go at anyone in particular but I do think we need to decide where we fall on this. Just because a hunter is at the top of the list does NOT mean we let them take a spell power piece "because it has more int and stam" (yes I've seen it happen  ). What do others think? |
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Post by castus on Feb 20, 2009 11:50:13 GMT 10
I agree whole heartedly.
Item level should NOT be the sole factor in determining what an upgrade is. Neither should stats that are beneficial to multiple classes i.e. spellpower and certain stats.
A couple constants...
MP5 is a healer stat.
+hit is a DPS stat.
Tp go one step further...cloth wearers should have priority over non cloth wearers, same goes for leaher and mail wearers...
My 2 cents...
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Rhodam
Veteran
lvl 80 - Hunter - Leatherworker (450)
Posts: 71
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Post by Rhodam on Feb 20, 2009 12:41:31 GMT 10
Just because a hunter is at the top of the list does NOT mean we let them take a spell power piece "because it has more int and stam". Hey that wand was good for me! Stop paying me out! Back on topic, I agree with you... but i think there has to be some grey area aswell... for example a lot of staffs (or is it staves!?) are fantastic for a hunter/shammy (and possible other classes)... infact Journey's End is the best in slot for a hunter atm... Should this go to a druid over a hunter? I hope not... If I lost this to Aelori or Sidara I would actually be a little pissed. That said there is NOTHING on that staff that is not good for me... I know what you mean and I do agree... I think last nights roll was "no big deal" but that is only as a one off... if that type of thing happened a lot then of course it would not be nice. |
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Post by greeegit on Feb 20, 2009 14:37:30 GMT 10
/agree
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Post by Dansus on Feb 20, 2009 14:39:49 GMT 10
Journey's End is BiS for hunters and druids. It is however my opinion that it should go to a dps feral druid first, as do most people on forums and sites like wowhead. My reasoning is that feral druids get benifit from both the weapon dps in the form of FAP as well as the other stats. Hunters however are only affected by the agi, stam and green stats. Hunters do also have other weapons available www.wowhead.com/?item=40497 www.wowhead.com/?item=39221. |
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Post by castus on Feb 20, 2009 15:03:54 GMT 10
No offense Rho, but hunters have the most loot options out there...
It's onspec for Feral druids as well as hunters...may the highest in the loot list win. I would actually favor this going to a druid to be honest...it's not like they can use axes, polearms and swords these days...
/end hijack
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Post by gbsilk on Feb 20, 2009 15:07:44 GMT 10
That specific case though Dan I would expect us to go off the loot list because its a legitimate, main spec, properly itemised piece. Now you could make the argument that it is "better" for a druid than a hunter - and I would expect you to do so - but the decision in that case would be up to whoever was highest on the loot list. I don't want to make this a long list of loot rules - this is really just a clarification of the basic main spec vs off spec rule. If the item isn't properly itemised for your spec / class then its not an on-spec roll. It can't be. With respect to say druids in cloth, I would hope that our druids (and pally's with respect to mail) would elect to pass on cloth gear if a similar specced toon needed it also. Druid healers can wear both leather and cloth, priests can only wear cloth. Therefore, everything else being equal the priest should get first crack at the cloth. This doesn't mean druids and pallies can't roll or shouldn't roll on cloth / mail - just that, as it benefits our team more, they should consider passing that upgrade to a clothie. Its not like there is a severe shortage of spellpower leather around  |
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Post by thoragk on Feb 20, 2009 16:09:45 GMT 10
Seems all pretty straight forward, it's a fairly general consensus that mp5 = healer and +hit is obviously dps.. but just to play Devil's Advocate for one moment.
A fancy-pants neck piece drops with:
+int
+spell power
+crit
+mp5
Main spec option is to healers, due to mp5.
Mikey McMage is a Mage. The neck piece is a very clear upgrade over his existing one.
The call goes out for rolls from Healers.
*crickets* No healer needs it.
The call goes out for offspec rolls.
Mikey McMage rolls
A Feral druid rolls
A Ret Paladin rolls
An Enhancement Shaman rolls..
I guess my point is... does it introduce a third tier into roll priority? Should the mage, who will wear the neckpiece on his main raiding spec, get priority over the off-spec rolls? I would think so.
I don't want to see things get complicated (I've seen loot lists with every class listed in order of priority for every raid item) or anything which will slow our loot distribution down during raiding, but I think it is something to be mindful of.
The very same situation would apply to Hunters, if certain weapons are given priority to melee for their DPS over hunters for their stats.
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Post by gbsilk on Feb 20, 2009 17:13:24 GMT 10
I wouldn't have thought it needs to be so formal as that Thor - in those circumstances the piece would almost certain go to the mage.
In exactly the same way that a druid healer would get preference of a shadow priest for a 'healy' cloth drop. I would hope that we are all sensible enough though that it doesn't need to get to an official list for each drop. The guys in your raid team aint your enemies (well except for Bob...) - they're not out to steal your loots.
People know what is good for their spec, what is ok for their spec and what is good / ok for their off spec(s) - the raid leaders and loot masters do as well generally.
What ought to (will) happen in your scenario Thor is that the Furlol, the Lolret and Val should elect (or "encouraged" by the RL / LM) to pass the piece to Mikey if its an upgrade for him because that is what is best for the team.
As long as we stick to that principle we can't go to far wrong can we?
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Post by castus on Feb 20, 2009 17:13:40 GMT 10
This has actually happened before...and if I recall correctly, it was passed to the person would would be using it as part of his "main spec" upgrade, even tho it was an offspec piece.
It's one of the benefits of having the majority of your raiders with a "guild first" mentality.
Foolproof? No. But 9 times out of 10 it works.
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Post by gbsilk on Feb 20, 2009 17:17:18 GMT 10
In this regard our tanks do this better than anyone else in the guild. The tanks don't even need the loot list 95% of the time because they are all willing to put another tank first if it would be better for them.
Next time a piece of tanking loot drops listen to how they do it - its worth following
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Post by Dansus on Feb 20, 2009 19:07:06 GMT 10
The majority of my gear is currently leather, however since Blizz has screwed up moonkin itemization again, there are several cloth pieces that are simply BiS, e.g. www.wowhead.com/?item=40560. While I do pass on pretty much all cloth drops, there's no way I'm gonna pass on stuff like that. |
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Post by sidara2 on Feb 21, 2009 0:11:24 GMT 10
Should this go to a druid over a hunter? I hope not... If I lost this to Aelori or Sidara I would actually be a little pissed. That said there is NOTHING on that staff that is not good for me... Sorry, but that's a freaking awesome feral druid staff. If that dropped, and presuming it was an upgrade, I'd be rolling on it and would expect to be given the same consideration as a hunter. I'm not asking for priority, but I'd be really really annoyed if I got told I had to give precedence to a hunter. |
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Post by sidara2 on Feb 21, 2009 0:13:28 GMT 10
On a related note, does WM have the concept of 'main' versus 'alt' in terms of loot preference? Just curious.
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Post by castus on Feb 21, 2009 0:42:06 GMT 10
No...if you are on an alt, you dont need to pass for a main.
Baddemon does it sometimes when he knows that a main will get more use out of an item tho...and that practice is definately not discouraged.
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Post by apollor on Feb 21, 2009 10:47:09 GMT 10
Yeah WM uses the loot list specifically to avoid the whole crappyness of class priorities on items. No class is more deserving than another, everyone puts in time and effort and gets a fair an even chance to get loot.
We also offer fairness to PUG's when they join us, because they too are in the raid contributing and get an even chance to roll. This has always been rewarded with being well received as a guild to raid with, and in a lot of cases apply to join.
The point is, you should know if loot is good for you or not and roll appropriately. The list will arbitrate the fair distribution of it all over time.
And as for Alt's as Castus said, alt's are toons to. Like Bad usually I'll try and pass on items when it's a major upgrade for someone's main etc. But even if I got a piece being at the bottom of the list means I'm not getting another piece unless everyone else passes. More often than not my alts gear through on-spec's passing as they have it already, or better.
-Apo
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Post by Rakshasi on Feb 21, 2009 14:07:16 GMT 10
We need to keep in mind what we like about this guild and how much we're willing to change it.
Remember the guild was created to be casual, the last thing I ever wanted was to become another progression guild. There are at least 40 out there (per server) to chose from.
Specifically the raid slot & loot distribution system was created with the casual player in mind. The whole idea is to gear across the guild and the next person up wins what they want.
((There was even a discussion early on that anyone who was on top could equip anything equipable, if for rp reasons, say, someone wanted a cloth robe or something similar. They earned it, so why not let them have it? We decided against it, but the loot list was created for just such issues.))
With progression in mind, you can pass to someone so they can get the upgrade... but if you raid less, and want your well earned piece (you worked for 1/25th of it at least) you're able to take it if you're above someone else.
Of course this doesn't suit a guild going all out for progression. But consider the alternative when you tell players what they're permitted to roll on.
Players will come to get the drops they need more than ever before, and when 'the wrong person' gets or is assigned loot... they'll complain or have frustration. Our rules state that this makes sense, since only certain players should have access. Once you've run a boss and gotten your drops there is less reason to continue to run it, as only your raid group will see those drops. People may game the raid slots (if they're able) to see if they can get in a raid with few competing members, or only people below them in the loot list. If a player gets his loot especially quickly, he may need no more from teh current raid instance we're running... he may leave to another guild.
Once you start to assign gear... gear becomes an even larger focus and players can start to count on when/how it'll come. Once it comes, there is often less point in hanging around. This guild tries never to attract loot whores anyway... but doing something like this calls on everyone's greed just that much more. This gets away from the come for fun and take what drops mentality we were trying to build.
Keep in mind, everyone learns about spec-loot starting in Deadmines... if the guild has been around since 2006 and we're still not doing that, there's got to be a reason.
But the guild has hardcore members and casual members, some short term, some much much longer. I expect them to see things differently. I hope we can agree that just because we dont' have hardcore rules, something isn't necessarily 'broken'.
But nothing wrong with deciding to change something... especially if we get more than we lose. You'll all have to decide what you value chiefly.
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Post by Rakshasi on Feb 21, 2009 15:41:26 GMT 10
Yeah I should amend this, because I think some are apt to think I'm saying we can't make changes.
We *can* make changes of course, I just want us all to be clear what we gain or lose (if anything) by doing this, and why we set things up the way they are now. Are the changes necessary, is the question, especially if this is the first major issue anyone's had in six months or so.
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Post by gbsilk on Feb 21, 2009 17:42:14 GMT 10
Well Raks you and I both know this is hardly the first time this has been an issue, even recently. You and Bad had a disagreement about exactly this less than a month ago when you wanted to take an off-hand with +hit on it because it was a +sp upgrade. I thought we agreed at that time that was the wrong thing to do.
At no stage was anything mentioned about the "right" or "wrong" people getting loot. Its not a loot council and this has nothing whatsoever to do with excluding "casuals". I wouldn't let Badageris roll on that cloak any more than I would let someone who hadn't turned up for 3 months. It was clearly a healer piece, consequently healers, all healers, get preference over dps. The loot list determines the priority between the specs the piece is itemised for. End of story.
Regardless of the discussions that you had in 2006 when you started the guild we need to figure out how things should work now. The vast majority of the people in the guild (including all the officers) have joined in the last 6 months or so. Discussions about RP reasons for the loot list really have no place in this conversation.
We don't have to tell hunters they can't roll on spell damage, we don't have to tell mages that +agi gear is useless for them. That doesn't make us a hardcore guild - you wouldn't be able to do that in any pug raid anywhere.
This isn't, in my view, a change to the rules at all. Its a clarification that hasn't really been necessary because people have to been considering the benefits to the guild and their guildies of not rolling on gear that is not for their spec.
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Post by apollor on Feb 21, 2009 19:16:11 GMT 10
If people want to see the content in the game, current and future we need to have toon's getting the right drops to boost their abilities as much as possible so we can push into harder territory, it's that simple.
It's really got nothing to do with having a casual approach to raiding whatsoever. It's about making sure our time spent obtaining any loot is going to maximize it's use going forward.
As previously stated we're not talking about wanting to "assign" gear. What -is- being discussed is that loot can be dealt with appropriately and consistently. Know what you need, and what you don't. Know when to pass because it's better for someone else, and know that your piece will drop and it will suit you well. This way everyone wins in the end.
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Post by Rakshasi on Feb 22, 2009 3:32:59 GMT 10
In reply to Gb... I'm afraid you missed my point on a number of fronts. To clarify:
The point of the rp thing was just an example and was one at the time the loot list was proposed ...to show how open it was. This isn't an rp realm and the point was academic even then.
If a hunter comes into an instance expecting a certain drop, the one he's been raiding for a certain amount of time, and it drops, and is assigned by accident to someone else... that person would be the 'wrong person'. That would cause the frustration. My point is the focus of the guild changes so that we'd see more gear complaints than the little we have. I'm not sure why that was unclear.
Bad's frustration over my loot choices had to do with him not understanding how the loot system works... or how stringent it was intended to be... It seems many are still unfamiliar which is why we're talking clarification and changing things.
If the loot system said we were rolling strict spec rolls only, I wouldn't except in case of dual/off spec ever take something with +hit, and I'd not roll on anything with +crit. That has *not* been our system hitherto, it's a lot more flexible, obviously many of the officers even have been unaware. I guess since it doesn't come up often we've been being pretty fair at any rate.
But no, this *is*/would be a rules change, as no... it is not how the rules were setup. So that's just to clarify.
Just so we're clear, again I'll state I do see the benefit it doing it like others do it. Can noone understand why I didn't want to do it that way?
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