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Post by baddemon on Dec 8, 2008 0:25:20 GMT 10
There has been some talk about loot lists lately, so I thought I would throw an idea out there. Here is my idea - an extremely simple rolling system. Here are the rules. 1. Anyone can roll on anything (that they're able to equip, of course) at anytime...PERIOD. 2. Everyone who's won something tonight, their rolls are thrown out if anyone else rolls. 3. After someone has won, the loot master will ask "are you sure," which is time for discussion and possibly the nice guildy to pass on something that may be a much bigger upgrade for someone else (but if he says he wants it, that's that, end of discussion). Upsides - 1. it's fair. Yes, I said it's fair. Statistically, the more boss kills you are present for, the more times you get to roll, the higher probability of winning that item you're after. So the people who attend more raids are rewarded. Yes, it's true that someone may have a lucky night, or even month - but it's a negative feedback system - self correcting. The more items I have, the less often I will be rolling. 2. Rags to riches - another upside is that it doesn't hold players down. In any loot system, people are rewarded by showing up to more raids. Well, if I show up to every raid, AND I get a bunch of drops along the way, I will still likely be very high ranked in any loot system. What does this mean? This means that I'm only going to to take the very best items, which means that those particular items are NEVER available to people who are just starting out or are unable to raid as often. With a roll system, there is more opportunity for the new guy to go get that very good item. Some would say that this is not fair, but the truth is that this will likely be a much larger upgrade in this situation, which will benefit the TEAM more anyway. Rags to riches is good! 3. You really can't screw this system up - it requires no upkeep, and is too simple to exploit. That isn't to say you can't strategize a bit. You can still choose not to roll on the loot on this boss in hopes that on that later boss your item will drop and the person you were rolling against now will have already rolled once tonight. The "preference to non-winners" rule keeps someone from getting "too lucky." Downsides 1. Irrationality - people can't help but get upset when that item that they want so bad is just one roll away...and they roll a 1. When this happens, just remember, whoever just won it will never roll on it again! Don't think of it as a loss, think of it as climbing the imaginary loot list - you just placed yourself above that person for that particular item  The truth is, loot systems only really approach fairness in a hardcore raiding setup. In a hardcore raiding guild, almost everyone shows up to every raid, and the loot list is just a more systematic way to divide the gear up. In a guild like ours however, you have the "core" raiders who show up almost every raid, and the "casual" raiders who occasionally come, but not always. If you apply a loot system, you create a situation where the rich get richer, and the casual folks are really only left with the scraps that the core raiders pass on. First of all, this takes away some incentive for the casual guys to show up. Secondly, the casual players will be perpetually under geared due to not having real access to the gear that could get them "caught up." In a guild like ours, we depend on our casual raiders to fill in those last few slots - wouldn't it be better if they had a few pieces of gear too? In my opinion, you can't beat the absolute blind fairness of the dice roll. Simple. Works every time. The key to it being fair is the utter lack of rules and stipulations. Tell me what you guys think! |
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Post by Rakshasi on Dec 8, 2008 2:52:22 GMT 10
We used a similar system for rolling on loot previously. We had drama over lucky rolls and some people not getting loot (casuals get to roll less. lose what seems like an inordinate amount of time, are disinterested and stop showing... then the geared team doesn't want to take time to gear others...) people left the guild and we came up with our current system as an answer to rolling.
If we want to consider a change for the good of the guild, lets talk about how we the current system is broken and how we can fix it (or why it needs to be scrapped) as well.
That said, I like the suggestion, it was my idea of an 'easiest' system previously, it just didn't work for us at that time...
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Post by Rakshasi on Dec 8, 2008 3:28:25 GMT 10
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Post by gbsilk on Dec 8, 2008 17:45:23 GMT 10
I must preface the below with an acknowledgment - I haven't ever seen our current system actually work as advertised. While it may be possible to draw some conclusions from that fact alone I am willing to accept that a majority of the reason for that is the mod was completely broken. I would prefer (as everyone is sure to know) to run with Bad's system because its quick, easy to use, easy to understand and the most fair.
In my view the three biggest things that are broken (harsh word... problematic maybe??) about the current system are as follows:
* administration of the list is a major hastle - it just takes far too long out of raid time to figure out. No one knows who is where and everytime I see the list I think "I am sure that X got loot not that long ago - how are they still above me??". Very few people are forthcoming about upgrades they received that aren't immediately noted too. So if the list isn't updated in raid it is not accurate and the system is only fair if its either always used or never used. You can't do both.
* people can (and sometimes do) elect to pass on upgrades with the intention of staying at the top of the list - I think the loot system only works if the list is dynamic. If you know that you are never going to get above 20 because people aren't suiciding off for anything less than the most uber gear ever it becomes disheartening. You only have a chance at minor upgrades until several major upgrades drop.
* its confusing when we have pugs with us (which seems to be all the time). Half of our guys are confused about how it works, its complicated to explain to people we don't know and so there is confusion on what they should and shouldn't do.
If I was going to be completely frank from a personal perspective I find that I dislike knowing that (1) by splitting time with my alt (for raid composition reasons) I end up losing out on positioning and loot and (2) once you have got an upgrade its likely to be an eternity before you have a chance to get another one.
Now we can solve some of these problems by getting several (5+) people who we trust to get the mod. The list should be widely circulated so we don't ever run without it. I personally would prefer not to force the raid leader to be loot master as well (just because of the work involved). Maybe we can think about ways to avoid the "off-spec" / upgrade passing issue. I'd love to hear some suggestions?
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Post by castus on Dec 8, 2008 18:26:55 GMT 10
I like it with one exception...there should still be main and off specs...main specs get priority...
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Post by baddemon on Dec 8, 2008 20:36:22 GMT 10
In response to Raks:
Casual guys showing up and getting to roll is better than knowing that you don't even have a shot at something good. I know there can be drama, but that's why we only let mature players into the guild, right?
GB:
I agree - if we are going to use a mod, we need a large pool of people that volunteer to be stuards of the loot list. These people don't need to be officers, just someone who's willing to step up and put forth a little effort. The truth is, it's almost effortless if the list is updated real-time. It's updating it after the fact, manually, that quadruples the workload, or worse. That would be avoided entirely if we had a big enough pool of list holders.
Castus:
I've thought about the main spec/off spec thing - but who get's to decide? You? The raid leader? The guild leader? This is what the discussion is for, but for it to remain fair, you can't put stipulations on it like that. Most of us know what's on and off spec for us.
Something that might work is having two rounds of rolling, just to make sure that nothing is sharded unnecessarily. If you roll immediately, then if you win, that counts as having won for the night. If no one rolls, then there will be a second roll (and this is where folks would normally grab off spec). Once again, any time you introduce more rules, there is more oppurtunity for exploitation-for example, I could probably reasonably guess if no one else is going to roll on a particular item, and then just wait until the second round. But if someone else wants it, it forces me to roll. The good news is, it only matters for that night, and prevents long term exploitation.
I'll say it again - I don't think there is any system out there that is more fair. It balances itself out. If you're the luckiest man on the Earth, and you win every roll for 2 months straight, you'll be far better geared than anyone else in the raid, and we probably won't progress to where you can get an upgrade until it averages out. Math is beautiful.
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Post by Rakshasi on Dec 9, 2008 3:25:46 GMT 10
In response to Raks: Casual guys showing up and getting to roll is better than knowing that you don't even have a shot at something good. I know there can be drama, but that's why we only let mature players into the guild, right? I'll say it again - I don't think there is any system out there that is more fair. It balances itself out. If you're the luckiest man on the Earth, and you win every roll for 2 months straight, you'll be far better geared than anyone else in the raid, and we probably won't progress to where you can get an upgrade until it averages out. Math is beautiful. As previously stated, we did this before we created/moved to our current rolling system, because even mature players have limits when some are lucky with rolls (the info is in the links i posted). The people who outroll others, are apt to leave for content more suited to them while we try to outroll one another a while. Please read the links for some background on why we moved to this system. Again we're discussing the validity of this system, instead of a 'best' system, in the case the system we have isn't good enough. I have yet to see it illustrated it's not good enough, outside of a broken mod and only two officers willing to administrate the list. So lets not jump headlong into 'any other system will be better' and especially not something thats failed in the past? If we're going to have a discussion, let it be how the current system is broken. Not that a mod lost some changes and people got frightened or frustrated. If you don't understand how it works, that's probably the biggest problem first. Gb had some points i'll discuss when I have time to touch on them... but it looks to me he doesn't understand the list as well... which is a shock. Sp we'll have that discussion when I'm able to answer i guess. I'm not a loot list apologist or champion or anything... I want a systme that works from now on... not something that changes when new raiders join up and throw out old priorities and the like, especially after such trouble was endured to come to a conclusion that works (or had, until we got new people on board and started using a *new fangled* broken mod). So we decide what's broken and how to fix it, or replace... I think, instead of just fielding ideas about better systems. What does our system do, or not do, and how is that alleviated and how important is it? Again, I love the idea of a simple roll... it just failed us in the past. If one or two people get fed up with it, that's unfortunately enough to move to something else... |
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Post by Dansus on Dec 9, 2008 8:42:49 GMT 10
Imo the more your raid the more shots at gear your should get. This might sound a bit harsh but if you want to gear up your char in full raid gear you really should be coming to as many raids as you can.
Both systems do have some problems, with the roll system a dedicated raider could make every raid hoping for a drop and when it does finally drop they lose the roll to someone who only raids once a month. Some might not see a problem with that but I do. The loot list while having good potential I've just seen as a bloody pain, especially when pugs are involved. It's kind of annoying winning a roll and then having to go through the loot list just to lose it.
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Post by Rakshasi on Dec 10, 2008 0:32:55 GMT 10
Gb had some points i'll discuss when I have time to touch on them... but it looks to me he doesn't understand the list as well... which is a shock. Sp we'll have that discussion when I'm able to answer i guess. I'd like to address this comment, that I made in haste. I was rushing out the door when I made this post this morning and I dont think this statement is entirely true, or looks right. But I may have to forgo my response to his points in this thread in need of a larger discussion. What needs to be done? When I hear the complaints about the current system, I often explain the system and find that the person complaining didn't realize how it worked. Sometimes they've seen it not used properly, or seen circumstances it doesn't cover (fairly rare, but happens). Sometimes they thought someone's name higher than theirs meant that person would get to roll on loot before them, not necessarily so, or that someone can't have gotten loot and be higher on the list, etc. There's some confusion... and the damn mod did break, so mistrust too. Again, apologies all around for that... but forces out of our control. Remember, we've run the loot list for the entirety of BC and only had problems this time when we tried to use a new mod - that's over a year and a half with no issues. We rolled on loot for a few months before drama came up. So what is needed? Education? Dismantle and replace? Is it worth doing that on the chance we'll pick something that's more trouble in the long run? Or are people so fed up they don't care what system we use as long as it's different? I feel like the more I try to explain what the system does and doesn't people think i'm resistant to change that's needed instead of trying to jump in a bigger mess. I feel like a jerk for trying to widen the discussion in Bad's thread about his new idea. I feel a bit like people are less apt to listen to me because I seem so stubborn about this system that's served us so well thus far and is quite simple. I'm not sure what I can say that people will take at face value =(. Counsel me please =). |
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Post by gbsilk on Dec 10, 2008 9:48:00 GMT 10
Ah my friend you are over thinking it! Its not a personal mistrust issue mate. Lets get the mod out to half a dozen people or more and let people see it in action. I know that I personally have never really seen it work. There seems to be a groundswell of support for the system in the guild so lets figure out the logistics - cause I think that is what most of the problems are. Lets get it working - properly working - and see how it shakes out? To that end lets get the Mod out to (thanks for volunteering - I appreciate the person emails that we promised to delete agreeing to do this  ) Apo, Castus, Kel, Omelie, Bob, Dan, Tari In addition to Bad, you and I. I'd also suggest Val too but it may make her computer melt down. I can't see any reason not to spread this far and wide. Before the first couple of raids we should grab everyone who has the mod on vent and just make 100% sure they know how to operate the system. She'll be apples mate |
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